SPEAKER_02: 0:05

Welcome to Work in Progress, a podcast featuring thought leaders with interesting perspectives on HR and people and culture. My name is Penille Hiebebru, and in these talks we explore the latest trends shaping the future of work. In this episode, I'm speaking with Mede Sus-Lessesen, a highly experienced executive director and professional board member. With a 25-year legacy as a senior leader at Rambul, most recently as executive director leading Rambul's European environmental business with more than 1,500 employees, Mede now uses her expertise to guide organizations at the board level through the complexities of ESG, sustainability, and international law. Mede's advice for HR in this podcast episode is clear. Sustainability matters are not a nice-to-have but a core business imperative. Welcome MEDE to this podcast episode on sustainability and ESG, reporting system, and HR's role in it all, most of all. So before we dig into the topic, let's hear a little bit about you. What's your background and what brought you into this field and area of sustainability and reporting systems?

SPEAKER_01: 1:21

Yeah, yeah. Well, I would say that I'm a lawyer by background. Many years ago, I graduated from the University of Copenhagen. And then I started off working more in the sort of in the nonprofit sector. I also worked for the United Nations, UNHCR. I was posted in exotic places like Liberia and Africa and lived in Ukraine, Crimea. And then I joined a large private organization, private company called Ramble, which is a consulting engineering company based out of Copenhagen. And I've been there for many, many years until recently in various roles as consultant, various leadership roles. And in my last position, I was heading up the European environmental business. And then throughout the years, I've been working with sustainabilities in various ways and forms. Everything from livable cities to when the Brundland Report came out, you know, looking at what were the implications of that. And then in recent years, of course, also working a lot on building up services around sustainability, consulting services. So actually, my focus, to be honest, has been less about reporting as I haven't been sitting doing reporting myself. It's been more advising companies on how to deal with sustainability in very in various ways. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:48

Yeah. So would you say that your um start of your career as a legal advisor and with working with human rights and living in so many different countries has shaped your path?

SPEAKER_01: 3:00

Yeah, in many ways, and I think it actually goes all the way back to uh when I was studying, um, I was super interested in human rights. I wrote my thesis uh on uh the European Convention of Human Rights. So uh so that sort of whole I mean when you talk about sustainability and the ESG, the sort of the the S and the G has always been part of uh of my mindset. Um and then I've sort of had to find various ways to to work with it. Okay. Um and even when I was in my early days as a consultant, I was uh specializing in in issues related to sort of good governance, anti-corruption, things like that. So so in a way it has been a red threat throughout my career in various ways, even before it was termed sustainability. Yes. I was working more or less in this space. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 3:46

Interesting. And that's also maybe the whole background between uh the development of the ESG with the environment social governance part, that that you you started out with the S, like you said, uh as the maybe the main focus, but many people maybe think of sustainability, then they think of the climate crisis or something that has to do with that. But to you, it's it really encompasses all of it.

SPEAKER_01: 4:11

It it does. And and it's also, I think, you know, for many, the the environmental piece, the E has of course been prevailing for many, many years because for many, many years, companies, uh people have had to abide with certain environmental regulation and rules. So it's sort of been and and the environmental movement has also been around for many, many years. Um, but the new thing, you know, with with sustainability and later ESG ha has been that it's sort of it comes together in a different way than than what it has uh previously been. So um, but you're right, you know, um it the the whole uh sort of the notion of fairness and uh rule of law and uh social uh which is also largely embedded in human rights, uh is something that you know I've always been gravitating towards one way or the other.

SPEAKER_02: 5:02

So yeah, sounds like it. So what kept you so long in Rampul? What what is it about that company that uh I mean, you could probably have spent your time in many different places, and but but uh how many years did you end up staying with?

SPEAKER_01: 5:17

Almost 24 years.

SPEAKER_02: 5:18

Yeah, so there must have been something special about that place that gave you an opportunity to maybe even develop yourself within the role or grow with the role. Or what what happened there?

SPEAKER_01: 5:28

I think it's a combination of things. Um it's uh I mean the the company is uh very mission-driven uh with uh and and had sort of a you know it was founded back in 1945 by two professors at the Danish Technical University and and already in the 70s they they decided to sort of write down their their sort of their uh values and ethics. Even I mean nowadays all companies have values that are sort of expressed and written out, but but they I think were kind of first movers in that and very much sort of uh had also very strong ethical beliefs. Like one of the founders was um they were both pacifists coming out of the Second World War, so they had very strong beliefs about you know which kind of industries you could work for and what you could not work for. One was a vegetarian, so you know you couldn't work we couldn't work for meat packing uh or meat the meat industry, for instance. So it and and those of course kind of funny anecdotes uh today. They took a stand. They took a stand and and and they had sort of a clear and then most importantly, they also very early on had thinking about you know that uh as a company, you basically have two things you need to look out for. Well, three, you have to of course look out after your clients. You also have to look after your people, and those are your most they those are your most important asset, but you also have to be an important part of society. Yeah, you have to somehow give back or or recognize what role you play in this in society, and and I think that was part of the ethics from very, very early on. Um and I think that sort of just appeals to me and has always appealed to me that there is a sort of a sense of a purpose with what you do. And then, of course, you know, in terms of what the company does overall, you know, it's it it you know, I was working lately a lot with the environmental issues, which is super purposeful in many ways, but also, you know, uh the company built bridges and roads and uh uh you know, large infrastructure, for instance. So the it these buildings, yeah. But also, you know, things that will last for a long time, so it's also important that it's done well under the right circumstances and so forth. So um, so I think yeah, so the whole sort of mission piece has always been super appealing for me in whatever I've done, and also here. Um, and then of course there was also the the aspect that I was offered different opportunities, you know. The company grew a lot in the period that I was there, so it was not the same company that I when when I began, when I joined, uh as it was when I left. Um, but you know, I had many opportunities. So, you know, I've been working and living in Brussels, in Denmark, in the US uh for a period of time. And um, and I think you know that of course also means that you stick around somehow when you know when when there are interesting opportunities. And then I think also you know it's it's it's a place where you have so a lot of very, very brilliant people, you know, really deep technical expertise in many, many areas, and and that has always excited me also that you know you could if you looked if you if you needed some level some expertise, you know, you could always find it somewhere. You know, sometimes you had to lift a lot of stones to get to it, yeah. But uh, but eventually you would always find uh you know an eminent expert in whatever area you you're looking for. And and I think that's also uh you know fun. Yeah, it's super peaceful.

SPEAKER_02: 8:40

Of course. And it sounds like it's a sweet spot of the ESG because you both have the construction part of the environment, you know, the issues and taking care of what you place there, right? Roads and bridges and everything and what what it's built of, yeah, and an opportunity to build it in a different way, perhaps. Yeah, and then the E uh the governance part where you with your background, of course, can potentially have added a lot of value. Yeah. And then, of course, the S, which is about the humans and the people in the system. And I I guess everyone from HR and uh learning and development can relate to those uh three things as a combination, as not only something that we talk about from a point where it's uh a nice to have, but a need to have to attract and retain and keep people. And you speak also about how the purpose in itself uh attracted you. What has your um experience been from coming from the uh it started out with the CSR, you know, we had the corporate social responsibility and then ESG came into place. And and where where does sustainability matter stand now?

SPEAKER_01: 9:51

So I think uh it's it's of course I mean that is a difficult question because it's there's not like an easy answer. And I think it's it is true. There's been sort of this journey with the with the CSR, which was largely a uh kind of a nice to, and also something that it was often placed from a sort of a governance perspective within the communications department, uh something that you know you would talk about and then you would uh also talk about that you know out in the world, but it was sort of less hardwired, uh less data-driven. Um and then, you know, then came, for instance, the the um the UN uh sustainable development goals, the SDGs, which which you know really had a huge sort of uh uptake. A lot of companies started to work in with those also a lot of public institutions and sort of created a whole movement. And the UN also created, and I was actually partly involved in that because I was representing uh Ramble in a lot of uh the the forums uh with the UN Global Compact, which was the business arm of uh of uh the you know the sustainability arm. And um so so there was a whole drive around there, and you know, you could go to meetings and conferences, and everyone would have that little pin you probably remember, you know, the circle with the different colors from the sustainable development goals. Um and then gradually transitioned into ESG, uh, which uh was, in my view, um also largely driven by the financial sector because they uh it became more and more gradually a framework also used by banks and private equities and so forth uh to look at their investments and their portfolios. And so sort of over time things have morphed and then came into place also, you know, the the European Union, of course, have been a big player in this, um, and and and all of the sort of the legislation that came through uh the the European Union uh some years back, which has now then been partly rollback, uh, but we can talk about that. So so there's been sort of this whole uh wave, uh I would maybe almost call it a uh sort of a pendulum that you know sort of it swings up and now it's sort of swinging a little bit back, but it's uh it's it's it's it's uh it is a journey and a development. I think it's quite natural the way that it's progressed.

SPEAKER_02: 12:05

Yeah. Um and looking at it as a wave is perhaps also very um fitting because some people might have felt that you know this was a nice to have, or something that a trend, or something, you know, uh that people could put their sticker on and then you know talk about it from that. Well what is it seen from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01: 12:26

What uh sustainability is well it's many things, of course. It's I mean it's almost like for some, of course, it's almost like a lifestyle if you talk about it at an individual level. Um for some companies it's uh it is still sort of a check-the-box exercise, compliance exercise. Um, but for some of the more forward-leaning companies, it's something that is increasingly and has over the past years been embedded in their operating model, in their business model. It's it's a core service for them, uh, for instance, or it's really core, it's a product, even it's embedded in whatever products they have. So I think it depends very much on where you are uh and and also um yeah how you see it as a as a value driver or a given. Uh uh so it's it's many things in space.

SPEAKER_02: 13:15

So but to you, is it a nice to have? Is it is it something we can live without, so to speak?

SPEAKER_01: 13:21

No, not at all. Why not? Well, because I think you know, and uh I mean we only have one planet and uh and we are sort of bouncing uh the the sort of the planetary remits um or or boundaries already. Um so I think that you know we there are some and we've lived and worked you know as if you know it's almost like a linear model we are we're looking at that there will be endless resources and they're not. I mean we know that and we still don't act as or we still act as if there is. Um so I think we we do have to uh to make some significant uh significant changes uh along the way, just from a you know pure resource perspective. Um and then there's the whole generational issue, you know, that you can start to debate, which I think for a lot of people that are really vested in uh in in climate, for instance, and some of the people that I know that are super also from an activist point of view, their perspective is not you know necessarily themselves, it's their kids and their grandchildren and sort of the next generations where they are you know looking at okay, what is it actually we're we're handing over?

SPEAKER_03: 14:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:25

Um and so I think that that's for me it's it's uh it's such a fundamental thing that we somehow need to tackle and address one way or the other.

SPEAKER_02: 14:35

So why do you think that some companies and even within HR, some places people still think this is something that's just on top of what else we have to do, and it's really just a lot of work that's not leading anywhere and stuff. Why why do you think that still exists, that perception?

SPEAKER_01: 14:55

Well, I think in some places, uh, you know, with uh at least in in in Europe, with uh with some of the legislation that came through the European Unit, like the CSRD and the and the due diligence directive also, and others, you know, there was a whole package, I'm sure you know. Uh, it became, you know, with I mean, and we all know these stories about thousands of data points and you know, having to to to relate to that, it became more of a reporting, a compliance exercise than looking at, you know, what is it actually we need to do and how does it affect us and what is the right thing to do. And I know in in that, you know, a lot of companies, or most companies would have done their materiality assessment where they look at okay, what is essential to our company, and then that's what you report on. But still, there was so so much reporting and and a lot of energy was put into that. Um, whereas, you know, the areas where it really, I would say, may makes a real change, and and of course, you know, which is not completely true, but you know, it's that's that's that this was the mantra. So I recognize that there is an element of, you know, of course, you know, as you as you get data points and you understand what is it our world look like, what is it our workforce look like, what is it our supply chain look like, all of these kind of things, you know, it does enable you to make more informed decisions. It it does enable you, you know, your you know, you're strategizing around what to do and so forth. Um so so that is valid and that is good. Um But when you get to a point where you do the reporting for the sake of reporting, because you have to sort of comply with uh a requirement that doesn't really make sense to you or to a large extent and doesn't really go in and affect how you run your core business or you know affect your services or your business model or things like that, then it becomes more of a check the box, it becomes less valuable, it becomes more of a it's just something we have to get done and get away with, get out of out of here, so that we can move on with our regular business. Yes. Uh and of course, what you need to look at is okay, what is what it what are sort of the the sweet spots here? What are the things that where we can actually hope to change our way of operating, our uh how can it, you know, how can we maybe change our service portfolio? What how can it impact our products in a positive way? Maybe there are some efficiency gains to uh to get from our supply chain because we have greater visibility. And then also I would say to some extent there's also a risk perspective because you know um uh honestly part of uh of sustainability, um, and we can talk about climate and these kind of things, it's also you know, uh that you basically have uh addressing your risks up front. Um so so there are many layers and you can look at it from many angles. Um I mean I'm used to when we when we were doing uh when I was sort of working with the environmental consultant, um a lot of what we did, also even before you know the whole sustainability drive, was very much a risk uh aspect. You know, you wanted to uncover what kind of environmental risks would you have, or you wanted to address environmental issues which were posing a risk or a a huge uh you know expenditure for you or whatever. So so it was very much from that angle.

SPEAKER_02: 18:16

Yeah, I think that's still remains. So that's also very much in line with what Catherine Richardson uh talks very much about when she talks about it as a business imperative. That it's not only about, you know, of course, we should and need to think about the climate, but it's also thinking about the business and taking care of the business to assess and uh make the risk management and look at it from the outside like that.

SPEAKER_01: 18:40

Exactly. And and I I would say that uh I mean I sit uh on some different uh boards, uh company boards, also a couple of listed companies, and uh and of course, there we've also been through the whole cycle of sustainability and reporting and looked at materiality assessments and you know uh all the all these kind of things over the past years. Um and um and now with uh and we can talk about that also, you know, with the omnibus uh the that came through the European Union, which is has not of course um done away with sustainability, but it's just slowed the pace to some extent. But um, but just to say that um the discussions in the boards I would say have changed slightly from again from a sort of a compliance and reporting discussion, so all these rules we need to abide with, to more looking at okay, um it's still relevant, but maybe we now we can take a different uh a different uh angle on it. We still have uh again, we still have a supply chain. We still might need to look at circular models simply from a resource perspective, you know, that that uh if you're sourcing materials from different parts of the world, uh, and uh with everything that goes on sort of geopolitically, you know, how secure are your supply chains? Do you need to bring things you know, some of your supplies closer to shore? Uh and are there actually financial gains to be had from looking at you know reuse models, take back models, things like that, so you're not always using virgin materials, for instance. So it becomes more of a, I would say, um a resource discussion, a financial discussion, um uh and and a risk discussion in some places.

SPEAKER_02: 20:15

Yeah. And therefore, maybe it becomes more relevant in the heads of those people who maybe or previously could say though this this has nothing to do with us, or we don't need to take it into consideration, or it's it's derailing the discussion of the business um future.

SPEAKER_01: 20:32

Yeah, and I think from an HR perspective, there are some some really big opportunities here because of course, once when it was more of a compliance exercise, a reporting exercise, well, it rested with sustainability function, or in some places also with the finance function, because you know, these reports, and it still does, because uh, you know, when you if you're a big company, you're still you're still uh subject to CSID, for instance. Um and and of course these reports have to be audited. Uh so so that's why in many places it's it actually sits in a combination between sustainability and and finance. But uh I would say uh increasingly there is also a role for for HR in this, uh, because when it becomes more less reporting heavy, it also becomes more about okay, how do we transition? Uh and and in and especially if you want to say, okay, how is this more embedded in our business model, in the way we work? Uh this means that the workforce has to to understand this. Uh, you might need to uh look at your skill sets in a different way, uh, and so forth. So there are a lot of things that that uh with all of this hectic reporting, you can sort of take a sort of a big of a step back and and breathe and say, okay, now we can look at it differently. And that actually also quite acquires, I would say, quite extensive people focus.

SPEAKER_02: 21:48

Yeah. So tell me more. So from an HR perspective, where would you say that this is a great opportunity? You already said a little bit about it, but if you were to spell it out, where would you start? Is HR now if you have more air? Let's talk about the omnibus in a minute. But if you have that breathing space or more air to actually uh prioritize better in terms of how to look at it from that more holistic perspective and the opportunity side for HR?

SPEAKER_01: 22:18

So you could say, I mean, HR, of course, controls typically a lot of uh the HR processes. Uh it's uh recruitment, training, culture, leadership, and all that. And I think if you if you are to now look at sustainability, again, not so much from a reporting perspective, but in terms of how do we actually run our business? How do we embed it in our business model? How do we think about the services we might provide or our products? Um, HR needs to be part of that because they need to look at what is the skill set we then uh we then need. How can we embed this in our uh retention uh models or in our um uh reward systems, for instance? If you want to, I mean it's classical, if you want to drive innovation, you you know, nothing happens out of nothing. You might need to look at uh at your uh bonus systems, for instance, if you want to drive a certain behavior or a certain skill sets and so forth. So um some of that is happening in certain places. You know, some of the large organizations have already built in uh sustainability targets in their bonus models for the leadership. Uh, you know, you have companies like Erstel or Nova and things like that. So I think that's sort of is already happening in some places, and I think a lot more could be done in that space, and HR really has a role there. Yeah. But of course, HR needs to sort of also then um there is of course an element of culture and and how we think about things and how we talk about things, but but back to my point about also you know what you measure is what you get. It also means that HR needs to get into the game of also, you know, somehow hardwareing some of this. Um and there HR I would say have a role.

SPEAKER_02: 23:56

Do you have some best practice examples from where HI has successfully implemented it in maybe not only the structures but also in the culture and how they uh talk about it and the the whole thinking about these matters seen from a more holistic perspective?

SPEAKER_01: 24:13

Yeah, so I mean um I I don't I mean I don't know the insights of uh of many, but I could say, you know, the company that I used to work with with Ramble, I think it was uh very much part of uh you know how we were thinking and and and that you know the latest strategy was sustainability was the core of it.

SPEAKER_02: 24:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 24:30

Um and that also meant that you know HR w would then uh or did take on a big role in terms of then looking at okay, what does that then mean for the workforce? So it was everything from you know training programs, uh embedding it in um, you know, simple things like job descriptions, role descriptions. Uh uh in uh in our, you know, when you talked about our um uh sort of uh annual, or we didn't have annual sort of employee satisfaction, we actually had sort of quarterly and more often sort of uh employee satisfaction measurements, you know, it would always be on the agenda there, uh, you know, whether people were uh and it could be questions about how do you see yourself in the strategy and do you feel that we're doing enough and all those kind of things. So so it sort of became gradually embedded in you know, across all HR processes also in many ways. Um and I think that's super powerful because then it's not only something that is sort of living in a strategic document somewhere, uh, or you know, something that we talk about in the you know in the news and the media or on our website. It's actually something that people can see is important throughout. And it's it's part of uh how I'm being measured, it's it's it's it's part of how we view the success of our organization, of our teams, of you. Um and uh and I think that's quite powerful. Yeah. Um and I think it really felt also that uh you know, all employees more or less felt that they had a they had a stake in this. Uh and um and and that's when it's uh it it almost becomes part of your identity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:06

Um, it's not only part of, you know, and uh nice to have anymore. It it's like this is how we live and breathe the business of imperative. Exactly. I'm curious to to learn a little bit more about the omnibus um package and what happened recently. Can you tell us a little bit about you know what what what happened lately and what does this mean for HR?

SPEAKER_01: 26:32

Yeah, I can. And I think uh I think it's important for me to sort of uh highlight that because a lot of of um people have sort of framed the omnibus as this is you know, more or less we're doing away with sustainability. It's sort of, you know, it's out of the question. And you know, frankly, I think, you know, when you look at the sort of the the news uh picture these days, um there's not that much about sustainability or climate. And you know, it's it's basically a lot of other sort of uh large agendas that have geopolitical issues that have sort of uh taken taken over uh within the last uh the last year or so uh for all the reasons that we know. Um so so you so it's I think it's quite natural that you can get the feeling that okay, uh it disappeared. You know, we're not it's not really relevant anymore. But of course it is relevant because it's still there, and a lot of large corporations are still uh subject to to uh to the EU um sustainability legislation. Um but what the omnibus uh basically means, sort of in in in in sort of in in plain words, is that it's it's sort of it's basically the EU saying that um our still our sustainability framework, our sustainability rules are still important, but we recognize that they've probably become a little bit too complex, and that's fine. I think it's always fine to uh to listen to this. And and also maybe that we move too fast here. Um so it's and especially for the private sector for companies. So so what they are saying is basically let's simplify things, let's try and delay some parts of it, um, and then narrow a little bit what they apply to. So that's I think is the core of the omnibus. So it's it's simplification and it's it's it's at a delay because there was also a feeling that things were way were moving way too fast for a lot of companies. And I think that's actually okay. You know, it's it's okay, and um it of course also comes out of the whole, I'm sure, that a lot of uh of people are familiar with also with the Draghi reports, which looked at you know the competition uh of the European Union, and there was almost felt like there was a you know a conflict between the sustainability drive and you know our ability to to uh compete. Um and at least a lot of companies were were complaining about the reporting burdens. I'm sure you follow that discussion as well. So I think it's it's actually a good sign that the European Union is uh is listening to that and listening to the private sector and saying, okay, we hear you, we can see what is going on also in the world. We we still think this is very important, and obviously it is, um, but we recognize that maybe we've gone you know over the top on the reporting. Let's simplify and make it make it more reasonable and more relevant. And I think that's the core of the omnibus, basically. Yes. Um, and of course, it means uh that large companies are still subject to it, but for a lot of smaller companies, uh they are no longer directly as it is subject to uh to the to, for instance, CSID uh legislation, or it has been delayed.

SPEAKER_03: 29:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 29:42

Um, which is also good. It gives more time to sort of take a step back. I mean, back to my example before some of the companies that I sit on the board of um that you can actually sort of recalibrate and not just sort of hexically try to comply with with some reporting requirements, but actually take a look at okay, from a business perspective, in terms of our core business, our business model, our supply chain, our people set up, how can we do this in a smart way? Where does it actually make sense? So um so I think it's good. And is it back to sort of the pendulum? I don't even know if I you know uh uh pronounced that correctly, but it sort of it swings up and then it sort of swings a little bit back to a more natural state.

SPEAKER_02: 30:20

Yeah. So it's it's the sigh of relief many HR functions may feel right now. Do you think that's gonna backlash later because it's gonna come back at a later point? Like you said, some of it is a delay, not like forever you're never gonna report again on these matters. Do you think uh do you think that's or what's your best advice for for HR functions in terms of looking at from that perspective? This gives them time to prepare, or is this maybe they can just postpone it or and hope it goes away? What what's your take on that?

SPEAKER_01: 30:51

So I think it's not gonna go away. So uh it's uh in so it's I think it more gives you more time to to be more smart about it and think about it, uh, as I said before, not from a uh, you know, we just have to report in some data, but actually how do we, you know, how do we want where do we want to be eventually, and how do we move our organization in that direction? And then you know, what are the how can we use data and data points to actually get us there?

SPEAKER_00: 31:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:16

Um so so I think that's would be the wise approach. And also, you know, uh there is of course also the good old, even though you're not yourself as a company or as an HR organization right now subject to reporting requirements, uh, you know, there's a trickle-down effect. So if you if you are supplying to a large company that is uh subject to, for instance, CSRD, you know, you will also be asked for for data. Uh so you so some you still have to have. Um uh or if you are, yeah. So so there are many ways that you that you could still be somehow subject to it, or at least maybe not as full monthly as before, but you still have to have uh have your your your you know yeah your your data in place and and have to sort of think about it. Yes. But then I would also argue, I think, uh that that you know from a sort of a uh uh sort of business perspective, it's actually also just a good idea to think about it. Uh and and think about it smartly. And and again, it's back to my sort of my earlier point about that sort of the the organizations that are working with these issues in a clever way are starting to think about how um uh yeah what how can we or do we need to adjust the way we actually work? Uh do and or do we need to adjust our strategy? Do we need to then adjust our organization as a result? Um and and then sort of gradually go down that route. Yeah. And that is perhaps also a more interesting route to be on in many ways.

SPEAKER_02: 32:50

Yes, it's more proactive. It's more proactive and instead of reactive.

SPEAKER_01: 32:53

And and it's also more sort of uh going to the core of your business um and uh and also perhaps I would hope more value adding at the end of the day. Um because it becomes more about who we are and who do we, who are our clients, uh what is our role in the world also as a company? What is it that drives our business? Yes, and how can sustainability be part of that? And how can it perhaps even become a competitive edge? How can it be a lever for innovation, for instance, things like that?

SPEAKER_02: 33:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 33:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 33:24

And was that very much so so in your role, uh what what was your what has you been your um main role description that maybe differs from someone sitting in HR? And how can those two maybe be bridged in the future?

SPEAKER_00: 33:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 33:42

Or or should they? Maybe they shouldn't.

SPEAKER_01: 33:45

Yeah, so my role, I mean, I was never uh I was not sitting in a corporate function, for instance, and responsible for reporting or anything. So I was leading uh uh a big chunk of the business, uh, and had, you know, I had in my latest uh role, I had 1500 people reporting through throughout my organization. Um so so my role there was more honestly about uh, and I was then also responsible for developing our sustainability services. So this was more looking at how how can we create a business offering, uh, a service, a series of service packages that we can go out in the marketplace and offer to our clients. Um but of course, some of those services that we were providing was related to this. So we had uh a whole team that were working on ESG and working with private equity companies, uh private equity uh firms, or with banks, or with big corporate clients on ESG, doing ESG due diligence, for instance, or ESG strategy and things like that. So that was just one part of it. Then I had another team that were doing uh biodiversity, and I had another team that was working on decarbonization and so forth. So, and another one on circular economy. So it was, but it was almost with with a take of say, how can we help our clients accelerate in these areas? Um and in that, of course, it became very important that we had the right people to at you know, the right experts to uh to provide these services. And so we had a very close collaboration with uh with our HR team in terms of uh identifying uh the right experts, uh getting them on board, uh, making sure that we had sort of the right career path, uh you know, job descriptions, you know, very practical things also. Um and sort of you know that that whole flow was was part of it. And and part of that is of course also to make sure that um uh that you know that we as an employer were attractive to the right people and also for instance to the younger uh generations um and so so we had a lot of discussions around okay, how do we uh how do we attract and retain talent uh that we can sort of put into this uh this funnel and and uh um so it was it was I would say across the board uh when you when you do you know when you when you operate uh a large consulting organization, you know, you need just to have a very close collaboration with your with your HR team to make sure that also that what we say is actually what people experience when they then join us, because sometimes, frankly, there can be a disconnect.

SPEAKER_02: 36:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 36:24

Um and uh so that was a very much sort of a hand-in-hand kind of experience.

SPEAKER_02: 36:28

What would be your advice to anyone sitting out there listening to this episode within HR who has the experience that uh either sustainability is not on the agenda at all, yeah, or they're not invited into the discussions or taking into consideration, what can they do themselves to either gain a seat at the table or even uh take part of the discussion or put it on the agenda? What what would be your advice?

SPEAKER_01: 36:53

Yeah. I would say that um even though you know I started off talking about you know that that that uh sustainability was very much part of the culture of the company. I think HR sometimes make the mistake that they talk about sustainability as, you know, this is culture, this is training, uh or this. Um and I think that's probably a a wrong way to frame it if you really want to see it at the table. You you have to sort of frame it the way that if we don't do this, if we don't um, you know, um make sure that people have the right skill sets, that we have the right incentive schemes in place, we're not gonna move on our strategic targets, we're not gonna achieve A, B, C, D. So you have to sort of you have to move it from from sort of that very sort of soft culture, this is training, and so which often becomes more of a, I mean, in a corporate organization, more of a nice to into sort of the space of need to and where it belongs. It belongs in the need to bucket. And it's and that's really about sort of saying, okay, and breaking it down to sort of what we want to achieve strategically, the business goals we've set ourselves, the targets we've set ourselves, roll that back to what does that then mean from a people perspective? And where can we then where do we need to be part of the process in order to really facilitate that, to move on that, or to even drive parts of that? Um and I think that's very important to have that in mind because otherwise you will not get a seat at the table.

SPEAKER_02: 38:25

No. But it also sounds like you talk about it as a collaboration.

SPEAKER_01: 38:28

How could uh how should HR uh measure and demonstrate its impact uh on sustainability and resilience? Because you also brought up the issue of resilience in the way that the board and the CEO actually value it. I think that's that's a question that you sort of again, it's sort of moving a little bit from sort of the softer area to something that is more hardwired and we can really see. Um, and I think it's uh it's uh this is an important question because it also, you know, you often hear HR being sort of framed as a support function, you know, something that we you know they need to support whatever else we're doing, and uh we call them if we need to hire or fire, but otherwise, you know, we go about doing our business. Um, but it's it's actually moving HR into that more sort of strategic space. Um and and I think for that, you know, you need really need to sort of uh be able to uh there will probably be four things that I would put down that you then need to look at from an HR. You need to be able to translate your work into business outcomes. So it's that linkage I talked about before. You need to show measurable impact, you need to speak the language, that's also important. You need to speak the language of risk and value and performance. I think a lot of HR organizations do that, but that's important. And then you need to be avoid, you know, you need to be uh not perceived as soft or peripheral. So so it's really sort of again moving into that more hardwired type of discussions. And and if HR does that uh and can prove those linkages, I think there is a very important role for HR to play.

SPEAKER_02: 40:03

It is it's not about HR becoming uh full on 100% literate or whatever we call it within geopolitical um things or things that has to do with the very core-specific of building up a more climate-friendly product or whatever, but but having that all holistic view at their role in terms of putting on the agenda from a strategic and business imperative perspective.

SPEAKER_01: 40:33

Yes. And I think and that's also important because of course, you know, um and we talked about ESG and uh you know, you you will have typically in uh in in many companies, larger companies, I mean HR is never gonna be the environmental specialists. No, exactly. They're not gonna be the ones that will, you know, look at your carbon reporting data or whatever it is. Um so so it's also important to sort of know what your role is in that, and there will be some who are sort of super skilled in that a lot of that will reside with the sustainability function or with the experts that you have sort of pulled in. But HR has a very important role in terms of um facilitating some of the work that has to be done and making sure that also this again this doesn't just become a reporting exercise, that this is actually something that is embedded in the organization, it is something that is understood by people and that people understand their role in this and that you sort of can see that linkage between uh what it is that we want to to be and where we want to go, and then the people. So I think that whole again, that whole sort of move uh of the organization of the people towards those achieving those strategic goals or achieving those business goals or achieving those financial goals, their HR can play a huge role if they take it.

SPEAKER_02: 41:55

And and it also sounds like talking about literacy or or the language we use about it, that maybe lately we've seen like a shift away. Like you said, some other agendas uh took over whatever is on our minds these days. And and we've also seen the whole uh language around sustainability from from coming from the US and where it's maybe turned it down a little, you know. But but what you're saying is is it's still extremely important that we take it into consideration, also from a risk management perspective. But perhaps we can talk about it maybe going from green to resilient, or we can talk about, you know, the first mover aspect of securing your business because you have actually built products that are more sustainable in the long run for the planet and for people. And and so so the scenario planning part where HR can can play a role and also help shape the whole language about this so it doesn't die out, sounds like it's a big imperative for HR as well.

SPEAKER_01: 42:57

Yeah, and I think I think back to what I started off saying, you know, I think the risk perspective is still very, very relevant. Uh I mean, if you look at geopolitics and the way you know things are changing all the time as we speak, of course, that poses a huge uh risk potentially to your supply chain. Uh you have the tariff discussions, all these kinds of things means that a lot of companies are looking at okay, where do we place our uh assets? How do we secure our supply chain? All these kind of things. And and those also are, you know, some of those considerations are sustainability considerations. Um and and and and HR of course plays uh a role in there because there is a difference between, you know, if if if you source a lot of your materials from, say, China and you want to take some of that back, you know, your supply chain suddenly looks different or it it will look different. Um and and and the people that you uh that you sort of uh uh are looking at or have part of your organization might change. Or at least you know from an HR perspective, in terms of looking at uh you know, from a even a due diligence perspective, those are new aspects that you sort of need to consider. So so even in that, HR would be part of it. Um, the whole climate thing, of course, means a lot of companies are looking at the the whole discussion uh around you know uh sea level rise or drought or you know excessive heat means a lot for where you place your facilities. I mean, I we used to work, I used to have a lot of uh data center clients for instance in our portfolio. And for them, big consideration was you know secure uh energy supply uh and also you know where you put those uh data centers, for instance, you know, the the energy piece is a big, big thing. And there you need to look at that, and you might be, you know, it it that can affect where you put your assets, where you invest, you know, climate considerations are part of that big time. Um and and so that means you know, when you when you sort of look at all of that, uh it also impacts eventually where your workforce sits and and what you need to sort of think about from a from a people perspective. Yeah. So it's all interlinked in sometimes in very complex ways. Um and I think it's it's it's it's just important for HR to be part of that discussion and say, for instance, okay, you have considerations about uh taking some of you know changing your supply chain. What does that mean for our workforce considerations? What does that mean for our for the for the S and the G in our ESG thinking? Um so sort of be be in the forefront of that always, and not just sort of come in at a very late stage. Oh, by the way, oh, that we need to somehow relate to this. But but actually think, have you considered this? You've you're you're you are thinking about moving moving this or you you're looking at a you know uh a new um facility here or whatever, changing your production. Okay, from a people perspective, what do we need to think about? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 46:00

So back to the question about um sustainability not being on the agenda in some businesses today. When you experience that as if you enter a new board or something and you you discover that they're not even considering these factors here, how do you put it on the agenda?

SPEAKER_01: 46:18

Well, I think uh often, of course, you know, you need to look at when when when you sit in a board context, you you always look at what are the things that you have to deal with and solve. And there can be sometimes some more urgent things, and and then that's what you run with. But then from my perspective, then it's it's uh it's a matter of saying, as I said before, maybe this is not uh sort of just sustainability for the sake of sustainability, maybe this is again a risk discussion. Yeah, um, maybe uh maybe this is about your um a resource discussion, which is also a risk discussion. So you sort of you address it. Maybe this is actually uh sort of a uh a finance discussion because it has to do with um uh like again if you look at your your resources and your materials, you know, maybe there's some gains to be had, some savings to be had if you can, for instance, move part of your production into more of a circular loop. Yes. Then it's not only a sustainability, but it's actually also uh a circularity issue. So sorry, not only a circularity sustainability issue, but it's also a financial issue. Um so so I think it's sort of it's it's it's looking at also sustainability in tandem with other concerns that you have in the boardroom. Yes. Um HR could do the same. HR could do the same, exactly. Yeah. So it's it's so it's it's it's in some cases it's about you know getting two for one, I would say, that you that you sort of address issues, but then you have multiple benefits coming out of it and be clear on that.

SPEAKER_00: 47:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 47:52

So so that's that's super important. Then I would also say um I think it's uh it's it's also a matter of you know when we talk about people, and I started off by saying that I myself have always been very sort of uh mission-driven in a way. It's been important for me to work in places where there was almost like a sense of a higher purpose. I think that also goes still for a lot of people and especially also for the younger generations. I think that's also something to be to be mindful of. Um and with that being said, I'm I'm I'm a little bit sort of opposed to saying, oh, it's only the young generation that is concerned about uh sustainability and climate and are sort of driven by that. I actually come from a setting where I experienced that it goes across generations. Uh everyone finds this to be important. And and I talked about earlier, you know, that that some of the activist friends that I have there into this, because of course it's it's it's it's the right thing, but they also think about you know the next uh generations coming. Um but but there are at least a lot of data looking at uh younger generations and saying you know how important it is. Um I was looking at a study that I think it was Deloitte did uh last year, where it's sort of uh two-thirds of the of the younger generation that are actually uh it's important to them that a company is addressing environmental or you know sustainability issues. Yes. So so uh and this is a global study, by the way. So I think it's it's also you know, you also have to think about what comes next and how you as an organization uh have some sort of appeal to the talent uh that are out there. Yeah. Um and of course you shouldn't do it because of that, but it's also something to be mindful of that when you do it, this is actually also something that makes it easier for you, hopefully, to attract the talent. But you have to do it. You cannot just talk about it because people will come in and they will, you know, these are you know bright, young, educated people. If they don't if you're not walking the talk, it doesn't matter. You know, you might as well not bother.

SPEAKER_02: 50:00

So just to to sum up, and we're nearing the end of this episode here. Um, what do you think is the future of SDGs? So anyone sitting out there considering whether they should start new initiatives around the SDGs and you know, the whole the whole thing that has been it's it's a toolbox, right? Many organizations have tapped into this and used it as a methodology and a way of working with it. And the little pin, of course, has played a role as well. Um but but do you see um um something happening in that space that might give HR an advice in terms of wait a little because there's coming a new framework uh is is around the corner, or what what what's in the future there?

SPEAKER_01: 50:45

And and this is just again my personal perception that the SGGs are still alive, uh, but it's more in public institutions where you know it's it's a different kind of role. Uh whereas in private companies they have been overtaken by an ESG agenda and then also by you know the whole European uh reporting framework and and and that drive.

SPEAKER_03: 51:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 51:06

And and and that is also because um the ESG agenda were largely taken on by banks and financial institutions, and that then drives a lot, uh, you know, because most companies have to somehow relate to their to their banks one way or the other, or you know, for investments or for whatever progress they they they they they want to do. Um and uh and and and that's also why you saw that shift. So I think one of the things that are confusing people within the sustainability space is that you have all of these different frameworks and you have all of the abbreviations. So you have the SGGs, the sustainable development goals, you have ESG, uh environmental, social and governments, you have CSRD and so forth. So we can sort of uh keep on talking about uh all of these abbreviations. I think the uh what is happening is that from uh at least if you sit in the European Union, CSRD is still there, it's still alive, and it will continue to roll. Uh and uh and it's it's hopefully finding a spot where it's more sort of uh doable. Um but then there's a lot of also more specialized legislation that is coming through the European Union around uh uh you know environmental the product passports, there's new legislation coming up which is related to circularity and so forth. So there's you could say it becomes more in sort of in more specialized areas that organizations will also have to relate to. So it's it's not going away, it's it's just becoming, I would say, more granular and more and more specialized, uh, if if that's the right way to say it. So I think it's it's it's really about sort of uh yeah, still keeping an eye out for for what is there. Yeah. Um and um and then again going back to where does it actually make sense? How can you use sustainability as a driver to develop your organization, to develop your products, to maybe um uh look at having a more robust uh supply chain, look at how you use materials if you have production uh facilities and are using materials in in your in the way you work, um looking at circularity from from that perspective also. So I think there are a lot of things that uh are still rolling and that you need to do, and and all of that involves people. And that also means that from an HR perspective, you will still have a role. Uh and I think there's a lot of opportunity for HR to go in there and actually take a very significant role in that. So that again, back to what I said before, you can match what is your what are your strategic objectives, where do we want to not only where are we, but where do we want to move as an organization, and what does that then entail from a people, workforce, culture perspective?

SPEAKER_02: 53:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 53:52

Their HR plays a huge role if they take it. Yes. So so that would be my advice to everyone, you know, in this profession. Figure out, you know, what your role could be, and then get in there and and and and then really you know work your way in there and and and see yourself as a facilitator and as a driver in in certain parts of the of that process and really a value add in many ways.

SPEAKER_02: 54:20

So, Medi, thank you so much for uh spending your time with us here today on this episode. Uh and and uh I hope that your take on the future of sustainability as a business imperative and very important iss for any business out there, it's gonna be taken to hard by everyone listening. Thank you so much. Du har lytt til vores podcast Work in Progress Session with People and Kulture. Du meget gerne del episoden med dit netværk. Du finder flere resurser og er People og Culture. Og f.eks. artigler, webinar og guides på vores hjemmeside kan session. Tak for du lyder med.