Pernille Hippe Brun: 0:04

Welcome to Work in Progress, a podcast series where I pick the brain of thought leaders within the field of people and culture. My name is Pernille Bruun and in these talks we explore the latest trends shaping the future of work and the evolving landscape of modern organizations. In this podcast episode, I'm speaking with Ed Lay, who is a neuroleadership coach, helping people create healthy habits, rethink the way they show up at work and live lives they love. You might wonder what a neuroleadership coach is doing on a podcast about people and culture and HR. Well, as it turns out, we can learn a great deal from Ed about creating workplaces where people feel a sense of belonging and can bring their best selves to work. So stay tuned, as Ed begins by sharing insights into what it takes for an individual to change, because he will later on in the podcast, also give us his insights into what this means for people and culture in terms of building workplace cultures where people truly thrive and perform.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 1:07

Welcome, ed. I want you to introduce yourself in a minute, but I also want to tell our listeners why I invited you after you maybe introduce yourself, because there are so many things that you do with your work that I think is relevant to the HR community with your work? That, I think, is relevant to the HR community and maybe you pitch that yourself the spin of what's the angle between what you do and then what HR can learn from you. So, ed, who are you?

Ed Ley: 1:36

Oh, that's a big question. Where to start. I did a degree in 2004 that was called sports conditioning, coaching and rehabilitation. So the idea of this degree was what if someone could speak that language, pull all the languages together? And what if someone could deliver all of those at a, let's say, an intermediate level in all of them? Yes, and so, full of enthusiasm, I went into the market and said to the market what I did and said isn't this a great idea?

Ed Ley: 2:16

and they said, no, that's a terrible idea they wanted 10, not one well, they didn't mind the idea of one, but they wanted one that was an expert. And I said, well, how do you afford this one? That's the expert? I guess I was really fortunate in that I was working in doctor's surgeries and with physios and with strength coaches and just really, I guess, using the premise of my degree to pull all of these things together. I guess, using the premise of my degree to pull all of these things together, and what I kind of found with the audience that I most resonated with, that was the CEOs and the partners in these companies that I kind of enjoyed spending time with as well as working with, was actually they were pretty well educated in the things that they needed to do.

Ed Ley: 3:09

Yeah, it was like they. Um, I would ask them what, uh? What do you think you should eat?

Ed Ley: 3:13

rather than preaching you should eat these things. I'd ask them what do you think you should eat? Um, and they would. They would give me a picture, an intellectual picture, of what they believe they should eat. And that was like it. It was definitely. I wouldn't say it was perfect, but it was 10 times better than what they were actually doing. All right, and so I'm a knowledge worker, let's say, in this area. I'm talking to them about nutrition.

Ed Ley: 3:38

Oh, they don't know what to do, so I should tell them they know perfectly well what they should be doing, but they're not doing it. And then the same with exercise they know what they should be doing, they're not doing it. The same with sleep, the same with alcohol and, as I started building this out further and further, it was the same with time management. And it was the same with leadership. And it was the same with their relationship. They, if they could pause life at any given moment like a controller, just press pause, take a step back and go, what would be the most skillful way of operating right now, in this moment? Yeah, they could come up with something way better than the thing that they actually did.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 4:19

Yes.

Ed Ley: 4:19

You know, the same is true for me, so I shouldn't really say they right, and so the. I kind of had this uh dawning I wouldn't say it was like in a moment, it was just a slow kind of realization that people don't struggle knowing what to do, they struggle getting themselves to do it. Yes, and and this is when I started exploring the neuroscience of what's going on when we make decisions what's going on in any given moment, what causes fat storage and what causes us to sleep poorly, and then what causes us to make to choose the actions that we choose?

Pernille Hippe Brun: 5:02

Yes.

Ed Ley: 5:03

So I started from this biology level, working upwards, rather than the psychological level, let's say, of coaching and working downwards. I put a strong biological foundation underneath it.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 5:17

Yeah, but there must be a lot of curiosity in your system, right?

Pernille Hippe Brun: 5:21

Because any other person might have taken the approach of telling yes but you chose to ask and what led you to that, because that's a pretty difficult thing in itself if you are young and you think you need to prove yourself and you want to, you know, be looked at as an expert who knows his stuff, and so so that in itself is pretty special that you started asking questions rather than telling what led you to that yeah, that's a good question, I guess um the um.

Ed Ley: 5:57

Somebody asked me once when did you start, uh, coaching? And I started a football coaching business when I was 15. And I thought that was the start, and then I thought about it. I thought no, actually I used to train kids in running and strapping weights to their ankles and pulling them backwards as they tried to sprint, and I probably did that at 11 years old.

Ed Ley: 6:23

But I guess I've always been interested in what makes someone perform better, and so the question that has kind of driven me isn't necessarily how do I get this person in front of me to pay me, but as much, how do I help them most effectively get to the result? How do I help them most effectively get to the result? And so I worked in a doctor's surgery one of these places and I sent out, I think, 70 letters to all of these different doctor's surgeries, and a doctor calls me and he says is this so-and-so? I'm like yes, he's like I've received your letter. How many did you send? I said 70. And he said my guess is 69.

Ed Ley: 7:15

People ignored you. I said that's correct. How did you know? And he said do you want to meet for a coffee. So I went and met this guy for a coffee and he's 68 years old and he's just opened up his own doctor's surgery, and so he was a partner in a doctor's surgery that was literally next door and he had been for 40 years. We're constantly contacted by pharmaceutical companies and salespeople wanting us to promote their drugs, and I felt very much that these 15 minute consultations that I'm doing are just infuriating me, because I've been seeing the same patients for my whole life and I'm going to retire in two years. I bought this house, um, I want to spend much less of my budget on pharmaceuticals and far more of it on you, meaning me wow okay, why?

Ed Ley: 8:20

and he said well, um, somewhere between 80, 80 and 90 percent of my time is taking up, taken up by maybe five percent of my patients, so I could already predict who I'm going to see week to week.

Ed Ley: 8:34

Because, um, because they're going to continue coming back with the same ailments or new things popping up that are obviously on the same problem line, and they really need to start looking after their lifestyle. And so they're not doing it, and I just, okay, well, what do you talk to them about? Well, I keep telling them and I need to actually make them, and so I want you to start taking them for walks and putting them on this cross trainer that I've put out here, and maybe taking them to the supermarket and then showing them food, and also, these are the ideas that he had, but it kind of it gave me this realization in a moment that this doctor had been telling them what to do for 40 years. Maybe, maybe, a different approach is is needed, yes and um. So I just started interviewing, yes, and noticing that in that interview process, people were naturally making the decisions yes why is this so hard?

Ed Ley: 9:44

maybe he was just rubbish at telling them what to do. But, you know, like I said, it was a slow creep of realization and I've layered more words on it since.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 9:56

Yeah, and maybe you didn't ask him why, but you actually said you asked him why you know he needed you. That's also another testament to you not trying to play the expert, because a younger, more immature person being called into the doctor's office, who actually did read your letter, might have tried to prove yourself in that moment too and told him oh, that was a good decision, because I can do this and this and this for you. But instead you said you asked why did?

Pernille Hippe Brun: 10:26

you want me to help you, which is so clever, right, because then you get him to tell you why, and that's just one step closer to the real connection with that person, and then giving him what he needs rather than what you think he needs.

Ed Ley: 10:43

Sure, yeah Well, maybe I did all the other things too. Yeah, that's what I mean.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 10:48

Maybe, you did, but looking backwards At least we wish you said why? Yeah, absolutely.

Ed Ley: 10:54

I can make it look perfect. Looking backwards, Exactly. We all can right?

Pernille Hippe Brun: 10:58

So no, but that's interesting how you know that one little question of why and being curious, generally curious is also so respectful to another person that you don't pretend you know what's best for them, but you try to help them realize what's best for them. And then what happens Then? What do you do now?

Pernille Hippe Brun: 11:20

Yes, sorry, in relation to yeah, so I I get why you ask it. I thought it was Big step forward. Now you're here in Denmark, you've set up a business which is more like a coaching business, right, yes, than it's a physical therapy or nutrition, or is it a mixture? What is it you do now?

Ed Ley: 11:53

Yeah, um, practice coaching and the the service that we sold in in the uk was um was hybrid, so every, every client had to have coaching um as part of their model of getting where they wanted to get to um and which, which sometimes took a really brief kind of informal. We're going to sit down for 20 minutes at the start of this and map out where it is you're going and what it is you're going to do in order to get to that, and some of it would be just during sessions and then some of it would be very structured. You have an hour one-to-one with your coach once a month and then you have four sessions during the month that will be in group, or eight sessions that will be in a group. So so I'd already designed a coaching system and already had coaches and trainers using my system, um and I was using it as well. And then I had um. I had coaching clients and I had training clients and hybrid clients, um in the UK, and but there is something about um operating a premises um that causes it to be a very kind of confusing as to separating yourself out, as now I'm just a coach but selling up the business and then kind of being standing without. That was really great. It was a huge leap for me into coaching.

Ed Ley: 13:43

But, having said that, when I moved to Denmark, like I said, I hadn't thought it through at all. So I just started reaching out to people on LinkedIn. My network here is my mother-in-law and my wife, and neither of them want to pay me. You seem like the type of connection I'd have had in the UK. I'm just looking to build a network and just so many people just wanted to meet for coffee. I think maybe 300 people in my first year met for coffee and a few people and I'm going to say coincidentally, coincidentally in the startup area just said do you know what Sounds like you could help me with some of these things that I'm struggling with? And a lot of them. It was burnout, it was poor sleep, it was they'd let exercise go and they wanted systems in order to incorporate those back in sports during it and then afterwards. Sports is isn't really that practical um, because they they just can't find the the thing that they want to do at the time. They want to do it. So they end up having to find a new way and they haven't done any um, exercise for exercise sake, so to speak. Um, they, you know, it's everything to them seems like it's hours and they're running these startups and they don't have all of that.

Ed Ley: 15:28

And so I started working with people just on building out these habits for health, and then, naturally, they just started asking me about, um, those other things. So I didn't, I never forced into now I am coach. People just asked me for that interesting and, um, and you know it, it started switching to the, the hey, can we, can we just talk about that? And hey, I know we do this and that, but I'd like to do much less of this and much more of of that. And then, um, one person would speak to another and they, they naturally just start saying it's my coach, yeah, um, and you really want this help with the startup, right? So I never really, I never really. Um, it's what I want to be, right, and it's. If someone said what would create the most transformational effect, what's the best way to spend this hour with you, then you know I would have, I would have said coaching, and I would have said that for years, but it was more the market telling me that we want that from you.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 16:39

Yeah, more than that so when you set up your own business in the uk and you developed a coaching system, is that what you said? Was that your own yes, system? What did it? What did it consist of?

Ed Ley: 16:52

um. So the the first um brain realization I had was around digestion. So the autonomic nervous system has two branches that are either parasympathetic or sympathetic, and parasympathetic would be known as rest and digest. Consolidate, repair things, um, and you know, project into the future, let's say, and then sympathetic, that's um. All future stuff is um put on hold. Digestion is put on hold. You're pulled right into the moment and the only thing that's important is survival, um, and that's known as the fight, flight, freeze state. And what I learned was that um was just uh, layering this concept over that concept, over the, let's say, the nutrition concept. My clients were sat at their desk, or they were scrolling on their phone, or they were in a meeting where they were reactive, holding their breath in anticipation of what that email or what's going to be said, or what responsibility or what question they might not be able to answer is thrown at them. They were in a sympathetic state.

Ed Ley: 18:25

Not in a panic, sympathetic state, but in a anticipatory alert state. So in that state there's no digestion, you know, there's no saliva coming into your mouth preparing to digest, and so what's going to happen to that food? Well, it's going to putrefy in your stomach and you're going to get gut health issues. You're going to get skin issues. You're going to get gut health issues, you're going to get skin issues, you're going to get autoimmune issues. Um, all all just built around the state that you're in when you're eating. Um, and so the very first concept, the very first concept was what state do we want people to be in? And then we just started layering into the training. Okay, so our clients are coming in in a sympathetic state, so let's switch them to parasympathetic and teach them to feel their body and what it needs to do to prepare them for exercise. And let's send them back out of the gym in a parasympathetic state, interesting, so that they can learn how to get in and out of this state that generally takes hours to get out of, which is why we get home from work and your head's still hot and you're still on your phone, you're still agitated. So we were kind of teaching that, but then we were okay, talk us through your breakfast, what's that like? And initially that would be what was I eating.

Ed Ley: 19:52

But then it would be like well, I wake up in the morning and I drink a coffee, first thing Spikes cortisol, and then I'll have a shower and I'll put my clothes on. Um, and then I'll have a shower and I'll put my clothes on, and then I'll I've already done half of my emails on the toilet and I'm thinking through my meeting and I'm. And then I'm like okay, so you're, you're eating porridge for breakfast, right, yeah, yeah, how'd you know that? It's like well, you're craving sugar because you're trying to calm down. Already your brain saying give me sugar because I need to calm down before I get to work. Um, so you're consuming sugar because the only thing that you can semi-digest, and you're in a state before you even leave the house. So, um, how do we, how do we set up this ideal breakfast so that you actually digest it and you don't get to work feeling bloated and then? And then layer more food on top?

Ed Ley: 20:50

because, um, oh well, I don't have food, okay, but how many sugars you having and how much milk's going in that coffee and all of those things keeping them in an alert state. So we started building it out from okay, we're working on their health, so what's happening around these meals? And then what's happening before bedtime? So it very much started around state. Yes, how, how were people creating the state that they need in order to do the thing that they need to do? And then we just started building that out into how do we create the state, ideal state for a meeting, for a podcast or public speaking or parenting or whatever that happens to be, but very much leading with this, this nervous system thing. And then I just started researching and and you, you know, what's going on in the basal ganglia, what's going on in the hippocampus, what's going on like brain regions?

Ed Ley: 21:50

Again, this if we've got the nervous system, well, it's plugged into a brain. What's? What's the brain doing? What regions of the brain are people in during different behaviors? What networks are they operating? Uh, just building out that idea. Where do we need them to be in this moment? Where actually are there? What networks of the brain are dominating when you feel like an imposter. And um, what network do you need to be in in order to not feel like an imposter? So, like I said, it was all the biological framework working upwards wow, how could you leave that?

Pernille Hippe Brun: 22:28

why did you want to sell? Why?

Ed Ley: 22:30

did you want to move to denmark the sounds like a perfect business oh, I loved it, I absolutely loved it. So the um I do, I do an exercise for my clients on purpose, and generally people think about purpose as being something kind of fluffy that's hard to pin down, and the way I think about it is it's not a future place you're trying to get to, it's who you're trying to be in any given moment. And so, and in any given moment, you're either operating on purpose, as in deliberately, or off purpose. And if you look across someone's life, you'll find that the times if you're most lost, scared, confused, stuck, they are off purpose. And the times they felt the most content, joyful, happy, peaceful, energized, they're operating on purpose. But eight-year-olds and 28-year-olds have advanced to that purpose.

Ed Ley: 23:41

You know they've graduated and I just felt like I graduated from that business and one of the things that I'd realized in that business was that freedom was important to me. I was taking trips to London to do workshops and I was going to talks around lots of offices and you know, I got out to do a TED talk and I'd written a book and all of those different types of things. What they led me to realize was that bricks and mortar was holding me back from doing more of what I wanted to do and less of what I didn't. And actually I loved the time that I spent individually with people and I found that I couldn't, I didn't want to let the individual stuff go, and there was a whole bunch of things in the business that I necessarily needed to do that I didn't want to do.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 24:36

So it sounds like you were giving up something you really liked for something you would love.

Ed Ley: 24:42

Absolutely.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 24:43

Like it's a trade-off. It's not like you were miserable or stuck or it was completely. I mean, those signs that people might get when they really want to change something weren't there, but you were.

Ed Ley: 24:55

You were more ambitious, kind of like it was absolutely yeah you'll get a good life if you just stick with with what you're what you had, yeah, and then.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 25:04

But I didn't want a good one, no, you didn't want to settle with that.

Ed Ley: 25:07

Yeah, interesting, and I think most people stick with a good life and they atrophies.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 25:12

Yes.

Ed Ley: 25:13

Good doesn't turn into great. You probably have to sacrifice something.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 25:17

Yeah, and so, exactly so that's what you had to. You had to sacrifice something to actually get to another stage of your life yes, absolutely, yeah, yeah well, that is so, that is, um, it's almost I mean, I would use the word profound right, because how many people dare to do that? Because you have something that's good that's hard to give up, right, it's easier to give up something that sucks yet you know, we still see people stay with in conditions where it actually does suck yes which leads me to when I invited you for this.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 25:52

You know I I have this headline in mind. You know why doesn't it have to suck at work, sure?

Ed Ley: 25:57

which, oh yeah, that's why I'm here, that's why you're here, no, no, but, but it's like it.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 26:02

This is a new, it's a little another angle of that right that it didn't suck for you but you still moved. But many people, even if it does suck, stay. How come?

Ed Ley: 26:17

there's probably not one um specific answer, and I thought I thought a lot about um, different, different roles and different characters when, when you invited me to talk about this and, um, let's say, I, I see, um, I work with some fantastic ce, love working with them, and one of the things that I find with some CEOs is they're very, very driven to succeed and at some point, in order to succeed, they've switched off their feelings, their feelings, and they haven't really, let's say, they've covered them over in some sort of way, but in any given moment they're outcome driven rather than experience driven, let's say. And so those individuals are usually doing pros and cons and risk return, and so we'll often end up not making staying in a particular place because of that. And then there's the other end of the spectrum. Let's say, your HR will think much more about feeling okay and feeling safe and may end up staying put because of the fear of discomfort.

Ed Ley: 27:59

Okay, and so those are the two ends of the spectrum. I think the, the, the pros and cons area, and then the, the, the fear of feelings area. Yeah, yeah, and those. Those are generally the two things that I'll see most common in people that aren't moving forward Because the future is too threatening, too uncertain to move into it.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 28:32

Yeah, okay, but what if that is reality?

Ed Ley: 28:37

That is reality, of course. A little equation that I like to use is uncertain self plus uncertain environment equals fight, flight or freeze. Certain self plus uncertain environment leads to proactive, aligned action. Ah, okay, so, okay, so you can work with what you can figure out is best for you.

Ed Ley: 29:20

A four-year-old child at a party and that child is holding on to dad's leg or mom's leg, and they run out and explore and come back and run out and explore and come back, and run out and explore and come back, um, and at some point they've explored the entire environment and now they own that environment.

Ed Ley: 29:39

They'll feel totally safe and the and that's that's what we're doing as parents. We're trying to make sure that the environment they're playing in, environments that are safe for them, so that they can explore, so that they can build confidence and certainty inside of that environment and, you know, become themselves. And. But there are certain environments it's like I have no idea what's on the other side of that door, and so the only thing you can be certain of is who you are on this side of the door and that you'll be fine on the other side of the door whatever happens. And but on the other side of that door is the adventure of your life and, um, I mean, that's what coaching is all about, really. It's, uh, it's getting um people to know themselves well enough to go and have the adventure of their lives wow, that that's a profound way of putting it.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 30:37

So, so that that's what you did.

Ed Ley: 30:39

You were certain in yourself that there was an adventure waiting for you in Denmark, in your instance yes, I mean the whether I thought it in the moment or put words on it afterwards, I guess, was it the um, instinct or intuition is, is my brain's taking in a whole load of data, uh, and, and I'm not clear what all that data is, but the data that I've layered in afterwards is my father-in-law is going to pass away and my mother-in-law is going to be on her own in Denmark and probably visiting a lot, and so we build a granny annex and ask her to spend loads of time with us and probably give her a worse life than she could have, or we move here and all I have to do is build a new business, and I guess I've always been quite certain that I can do that. Um, so um, I I've worked for myself for for forever, so so I've always been confident that I could build a business, so it so it didn't seem hard, it seemed like I'd be able to do it yeah.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 32:03

So when, when you meet people in your current coaching business and they don't feel certain and and they might not be ready to take those steps that's needed for them to go from, either it sucks or it's good enough to, it can become great or an adventure, or even better than it is right now. Yeah, where do you start? How do you do that?

Ed Ley: 32:26

guns to the head usually force them to do it no um tell them um the. Where I start usually is with the low-hanging fruit. I just work out the things that they already know they're doing, that are slowing them down, and then I use the biology of habit to remove those habits.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 32:57

What's the biology of habits?

Ed Ley: 32:59

well, okay.

Ed Ley: 33:01

So, um, if any neuroscientists are watching, I apologize for this um, but if we think about particular brain regions and their specialties, so, um, the basal ganglia in the brain, it's, it's, it's a specialist in habit, and so what it's on the lookout for is actions that we take that cost a lot of energy, but they're really effective for getting us where we want to get to and while also causing us to gain status or not lose status, in a cost-effective manner.

Ed Ley: 33:42

And if the basal ganglia sees us do that action three or four times, it says well, this is costing way too much energy, so let's turn this into a habit. It'll take like one tenth of the energy, or even less than that, now to keep repeating that behavior. Right, so it's easier to do than not to do. Yeah, um, and so if someone is behaving in a certain way, they have a habit that they've labeled good or a habit that they've labeled bad. Um, it's gone through that process. The brain has said um, this allows you to experience more of what you want and less of what you don't want in a cost effective manner.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 34:23

Even if it's a bad habit.

Ed Ley: 34:25

Well, there's no such thing as a bad habit, but yes, All right.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 34:31

So what do you have labeled yourself? It's what you've labeled as bad. That's what you yeah.

Ed Ley: 34:37

So I've been a smoker in my time, which was a super fun habit. And when did I start it? I started it when I was 16 years old, going to the village pub, and your brain picks up on the values of the room and says these behaviors would move you up the hierarchy most quickly. So you start doing it and then you realize that it's actually kind of true. The environment here values how much you can consume in alcohol and that you smoke. So you start doing those things and those people around you say, oh, you're like me. And then you gain connections, you gain status, you belong. And then you gain connections, you gain status, you belong, and um, and so those behaviors do work in order to thrive in an environment.

Ed Ley: 35:29

Now you move to a different environment and now you're stuck with a habit that no longer does that. And then you actually realize you know I kind of value being alive. Then you might start labeling it as bad, but part of your brain is still saying, no, this is this. You need this for social connection, social status, and if you lose that you'll die because you'll be kicked out of the tribe and you'll be eaten by a bear. Yes, got it. Yeah, and so I'm helping people find those habits that no longer serve them, that they know for certain no longer serve them, and how do we rewire that right Exactly?

Ed Ley: 36:08

So if the habit is formed accidentally, all we're doing is going through the exact same process that you went through accidentally, deliberately.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 36:21

Yes.

Ed Ley: 36:24

And so to add specifics to that, it would be well. I'm using my mobile phone. Let's say what is this causing me to feel? In what context, what isn't working about it and what is working about it, and what will I stop doing? In what contexts will I stop doing that and when will I do this and when will I not do this? And what will I allow to supersede this rule? What will I allow to supersede this rule? So I'm going to stop using my phone from six o'clock until six o'clock in the evening till six o'clock in the morning, because I feel stuck at work, which makes me feel restless and I'm disconnected from my family. So I've decided to stop using it in that window unless I've got a pre-arranged call or we're on a deadline.

Ed Ley: 37:23

Um, and to set myself up for success. This is the actual actions that I'll take, and if I wanted to set myself up to fail, these are the actions that I would take. And if we can be really precise about those things, then our brain starts to notice the pathway to doing it, the pathway to not doing it, and once we've done it three times and it's worked, the basal ganglia is paying attention and it says oh, actually, you got what you wanted to get. You stopped getting what you didn't want to get. Let's make a habit of this process.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 37:57

Okay, yeah, and for some smokers it might take a little bit longer than three times, right yeah?

Ed Ley: 38:04

Well, the challenge with smoking is that it's not one habit. You know, it's many, and so I have had smokers stop from one day to the next, and that's not an uncommon experience. But it depends where the associations are, because the habits are held in the environment. They are a neural connection between your brain and the environment, and so I might have the habit of not smoking at all unless I'm seeing you and my six other friends that I smoke with, and then my habit is breaking the social contract, and I've got six different social contracts. Perhaps, yes, and who knows, I might still have someone. It's like people that I haven't seen in 25 years and all of a sudden I meet them and there I go and your brain starts firing right right smoke with these yeah exactly what are you doing?

Ed Ley: 39:06

exactly you're gonna lose connection if you don't do this.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 39:08

You don't want that yeah, exactly, okay, interesting and so. So to bring it back to to the work you know the the world of work and how. You know we create habits there as well, and maybe we also get habituated to work in a place where it sucks or it's not okay. The feelings you get from being there you feel stuck or you feel like you're not. You know you're being humiliated, maybe even, and you still stay, stay there. So what's going on in these situations and what would your advice to be for anyone listening in right now who might have that experience? You know that they're kind of stuck, but they don't know how to get out of it or move on, or if they even deserve to move on.

Ed Ley: 39:57

As soon as that person walks into a room with me, they've already made a decision. Their decision is that they're responsible, and that's absolutely true. They are the ceo of their own situation. Let's say, and so, um, they, they have ultimate responsibility. And so they need to look at in their organizations and say, well, this person is about to be signed off with stress, can you do something help prevent that? And and they make it as an offer, and that person says, yes, I'm willing to take responsibility for this situation.

Ed Ley: 40:55

The first thing that we're checking is do you have a job description? Um, like, what is it that you're trying to master? And, um, I, do you have the space to be able to master that? Are you, are you focused on doing this job really well? Do you feel like you have the support to do it really well? Or do you actually have the support to do it really well? And, um, what are the obstacles to you being able to do that well? Is it, is it training? Is it, um, that you're being invited to 80 meetings a week? Um, is it that the resources aren't available for you to be able to do?

Ed Ley: 41:36

that um, and do you even know what it is? Yeah, um, that you're trying to do yes, and can you attach it to the company mission right?

Ed Ley: 41:45

and do you even know what the company mission is? So the actions that you're taking, of the skill you're trying to master, aligned with where the company is going, can you see any kind of the connections right? So it's really kind of practical from that perspective. Yes, and then the next thing would be um, do you, are you taking responsibility for your time right? So autonomy, that's the, or freedom is. Is the message right? And that's one that runs through um hr, and I think it spreads a lot of confusion, actually, because people think of freedom as the opposite of responsibility, but actually freedom is the side effect of responsibility.

Ed Ley: 42:31

So, are you rejecting all meetings that don't move you and your tasks to where you want to go, for example, and and do you feel like you can do that? And if you don't, why don't you feel like you can do that? Has the environment been set up for that? Um, do you have the freedom to choose how you do stuff? Or people telling you constantly how to do it? And if they're telling you, um, can you push back and say this isn't going to work?

Ed Ley: 43:03

If you keep telling me what to do, um, and then the next one is belonging. Do um, are you, um, supporting the people around you and recognizing their work and recognizing their efforts, and are they doing the same for you? So how are you behaving towards other people? And if, if someone works with me, I'm helping them take inventory around those three things in particular. You know we might stretch on to whether this company, we might stretch on to whether this company, um. So the three things being sorry, the three things being mastery, um, autonomy, belonging, yes, okay, and um, and that that mastery, in order to have that, necessarily needs to feed into the mission of the organization, yeah, when we bring it home to mastery, that someone can see. This is what I'm trying to get really good at, and getting really good means getting effective, and getting effective means it takes you less time to produce the same result or better results and you're constantly working for less and less time to produce better and better results, which is how you move up an organization.

Ed Ley: 44:25

It's how you feel a sense of growth in yourself. So I'm helping them explore whether those three things are present and they can take inventory. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. I'm facilitating an inventory, right?

Pernille Hippe Brun: 44:32

yes, but it also sounds like you are in some ways, maybe even doing the job of hr or of the ceo, as you said. You know that ultimately, if the conditions were right in the company, someone would have already asked those questions to the person close to burnout or being stressed yeah, there's a colleague or a leader or an HR professional or yes, absolutely, and the stress is a complicated thing, right, because it's stress is.

Ed Ley: 45:15

We talk about it as if it's like a random thing that just suddenly falls upon you or something, but it's essentially a repeated state of fight, flight or freeze, and so the fight might look like I'm pushing people away, I'm getting angry, I'm blaming people, I'm pointing fingers. Way, I'm getting angry, I'm blaming people, I'm pointing fingers, and so I may not be overtly being accused of being toxic, but maybe I'm behaving in that way and it's just because I feel under threat and I don't know what to do about it. And then there's flight, which tends to look like withdrawal, and it's anxiety and it's nervousness, it's stepping away, it's maybe it's absence from work, it's wanting to work from home, it's camera off, which there are multiple reasons for camera off, and it's no, no, no, no, I'm fine, I'm fine, thank you, though I'm no, no, I'm fine, I'm fine, thank you, though I'm fine, I'm fine. Um, and then freeze would be staying quiet, not speaking up in meetings, um, being withdrawn and um, feeling stuck, and all humans yeah, all humans can experience that and all do throughout the day, and so everyone's moving in and out of these things, and you're right in saying that you know, the dream organization has got systems and processes for capturing these things, for identifying them, for allowing people to self-identify, although most people don't ask for help until the other side of it right, they don't tend to ask for help during because they're not good enough during.

Ed Ley: 47:11

Right, and nobody wants to communicate their not good enoughness to someone else. Right, it takes a huge amount of courage and um to be able to to do that, and so you're right, um, but business building is really hard and it's really complicated. Yeah, and um, at any given time, um, people are firefighting something, and so it's really easy to overlook that. Inkling that, I've noticed a thing, which is why HR is so important to have systems and processes in place because a business is constantly going to be going through those challenges. Because a business is constantly going to be going through those challenges I mean, I work with startups and scale-ups and businesses of 50, 100, 200 people that are agencies as well. They're just like constantly going from one challenge to another.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 48:15

Yes, yeah. So what you're saying is that, because of the nature of high growth and unstable conditions and just the world we live in right now, we need those procedures, the systems that HR can build up and help with to mitigate that, but they also need to bear over with themselves that it's not in place because they're also working under those conditions. Um, what kind of systems or procedures is that you would point towards in if you were to start somewhere, in order to create those better conditions to calm people's nervous systems down and, sure, yeah, make them feel like they belong and can master?

Ed Ley: 49:03

their jobs and so anytime any human goes into a new environment, they are alert and what they're trying to learn is what behaviors gain you hierarchy. And that's not linked to anything like arrogance or the type of person you are. That's a region of your brain, the anterior cingulate cortex, is specialist in measuring hierarchy constantly. It's that part of my brain that said smoke and drink as much as you possibly can and be funny and all of those things.

Ed Ley: 49:39

And so, in any given environment, constantly, it's that part of my brain that said smoke and drink as much as you possibly can and be funny, and all of those things.

Ed Ley: 49:43

Um, and so, in any, any given environment, you're trying to work out how is it done around here? And, um, it's almost impossible to work out, um, unless you sell, unless you see what's celebrated. I was helping a company with some values a few years ago, actually in the US, and they popped a champagne bottle at like one o'clock or something and toasted Johnny for his 72-hour heroic shift that he'd done, he'd worked his ass off, he'd solved this major problem that they were having. And then I was sitting down with the leadership team afterwards and I was like, the values that we defined and we've not put them out to the company yet, does Johnny's behavior align with any of them? No, no, it doesn't, because what Johnny should have done is said we've got this problem, we should have taken it to his team and they should have brainstormed and they should have collaborated together to work out how to make sure this problem was solved this time and also never happened again, and that that was built into their values that, of course, we hadn't shared.

Ed Ley: 51:10

But they, what they were doing was they were celebrating um this burnout behavior right, yes, um, and so anyone in the organization wouldn't have a hard time articulating what it is would that would move your hierarchy and that's um walking speed or number of shiny pens on your desk or um, the color of your tie or the nature of the jokes you tell or what sports team you support.

Ed Ley: 51:44

These are values that are in our society and an organization essentially needs to go. Who is it that we're trying to be and who is it that we're actually being, and what's the gap there? Yes, and if you've got a document that says, when you go into that company, you've got a manifesto that says we do this for these reasons and we don't do this, for these reasons, and every time someone does it the thing that we do here it's celebrated and they're recognized for it.

Ed Ley: 52:16

And every time they do something that we don't do around here, it's like, hey, you did this, how can we do this differently? And that's brought down to a granular level of this is how we do meetings and this is how we do one-to-ones and this is how we manage our time and this is how we push back when this is what we do. When we're sent a meeting invite that doesn't have any context to it, or whatever it happens to be, we're given permission to align with the values and permission to not align with anything outside of alignment with the values, and everyone can just relax because it's like, okay, this is the stuff that's celebrated, is that actually what's celebrated here? And then you can align all of your behaviors with that, and then the better you are at doing that and the better you are at celebrating it and pointing to it and marketing the business around it, the more likely you are to attract people that already have those values, yeah, and are seeking to be more that and be around people who are more that, yeah.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 53:31

What you say is that belonging maybe is a first right. How can we create a sense of belonging the moment the person steps into the company, so they can relax and get into the stage of parasympathetic activity, so they can bring their best self to work? And then the next level is having all those routines that underscores the values that's there, which ripples into the you know one-to-ones and meetings and everything, and then ultimately you know the.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 54:06

The hr purpose is the purpose of the business yes right how to sustain and make sure the values are lived yes, absolutely, rather than um.

Ed Ley: 54:19

What often happens is the is the leadership and hr end up in opposition to each other. It's like we've got this business moving 100 miles an hour. Oh, do we really need hr? And I've seen it, um, because of working in startups and watching them rapidly grow. Hr is like this Okay, people are leaving and they're down with stress and, on top of like, you know, when do I get my holiday and how can I discuss my pay and all of those things and health and safety and those types of things. But what often brings that initiation of a HR department is how do we make these people just a little bit happier so that we can just get on with it, because I'm just spending all of my time talking about their emotions or whatever, and then they naturally end up in opposition to each other.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 55:17

Yeah, that's true. Naturally end up in opposition to each other? Yeah, that's true. So that partnership that you know, bringing yourself to that level of purpose where you're actually on the same boat, is extremely important. It sounds like yes. What if you end up, within HR, finding yourself in opposition? How would you advise anyone to get out of that and into that other way of of serving the company as hr?

Ed Ley: 55:46

I would, I'd go into a self-reflection do I have, um, what's the mission of the company and do I have a role that's aligned with that mission? And because then you can talk about. You can talk about practicalities, because if, if you take feelings to someone, there's very little they can do about it. It's like I don't know how to solve the feelings, but my job description.

Ed Ley: 56:12

I can't see that this job description is in alignment with where the company is going to go with where the company is going to go, and these, I believe, are the priorities that I'm being told are my priorities. But you're asking me to do these other things that I do not believe will get the company where it wants to go. So can we align on where it needs to go? So it always comes back to something practical. Even emotions are practical. They cause an effect. It's just we're not perhaps clear on what the cause is, so we can't change the effect we get clear on the cause, we can change the effect.

Ed Ley: 56:48

And so, looking in the areas that that I outlined the, the mastery, the autonomy and uh and the belonging and seeing what am I pushing out and what am I getting back and how can I, how can I align those things? Yeah, that, that would be the place that I'd start and then it might come back to that.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 57:09

The reality is, yes, you are not listened to and people do not value what you do, and and you now, master, speaking up about that or or telling people you know how, how you see things, uh should be, and what you want to offer and add and be solutions oriented, but you're still not listened to. So so you take it step by step and build people up there and and kind of also work with their self-esteem absolutely I may not be.

Ed Ley: 57:37

I mean, um, self-esteem to me is the promises that you make to yourself that you keep, and and so, um, I'm starting again with um, I don't feel valued. Okay, am I doing anything valuable? Yes right, it makes sense, right, yes, it's starting a completely different place. Right and and, yeah, it's, it's twisted yes and the you cannot not um get better if you start with yourself exactly, and if you're not listened to, are you asserting yourself?

Pernille Hippe Brun: 58:12

are you speaking up in a way where people can actually hear what you're saying, and things like that yeah, absolutely yeah.

Ed Ley: 58:18

The um. Are the things that you're saying valuable, given um where the company is going in the place that the person you're talking to is is in?

Pernille Hippe Brun: 58:30

and so so one last word from you around you know a good advice or something that you wish you had known, maybe earlier on in your career. For anyone out there who might feel stuck at work, what would that be?

Ed Ley: 58:49

You aren't stuck. There's no such thing as stuck. But if you're feeling stuck, then asking yourself why you feel stuck, what story you're having to tell yourself about why it is you're stuck, and what skill. Or if you truly trusted yourself and felt free to say whatever needed to be said and that isn't to say you have to say it what would it be that would make you unstuck?

Pernille Hippe Brun: 59:32

Thank you, Ed.

Ed Ley: 59:34

My pleasure. Thanks for having me, that was fun.

Pernille Hippe Brun: 59:38

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